Talk:Out-of-body experience

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Unanimity of source[edit]

"Science considers the OBE a type of hallucination that can be caused by various neurological and psychological factors."

This statement, in Wikipedia' voice, claims that Science (presumably meaning scientific consensus) considers OBEs to be hallucinations. While I'm sure it's possible to find four (skeptical) sources that support such a view, is this really the scientific consensus? I'm skeptical.- MrX 20:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm adding some sources that should bear on how the lead is worded.

- MrX 20:43, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

An out-of-body experience (OBE) is a unique dissociative event in which the person feels separated from his/her body.

Joseph Meyerson and Marc Gelkopf, "Therapeutic Utilization of Spontaneous Out-of-Body Experiences in Hypnotherapy," American Journal of Psychotherapy 58, no. 1 (2004), http://www.questia.com/read/1P3-623520141.

If there is "something more" to OBEs and other anomalous experiences than can be understood naturalistically, such possibilities must be addressed by a different kind of study than we have considered here. (7) More rigorous studies of this latter sort with the controlled experimental. manipulations and observations of the alleged veridicality of OBEs am required. Relevant studies am currently underway, though positive results have, to my knowledge, yet to be reported.

James Allan Cheyne, "When Is an OBE Not an OBE? A New Look at Out-of-Body Experiences," Skeptic (Altadena, CA), Fall 2008, http://www.questia.com/read/1G1-190099336.

To date only few scientific investigations have been carried out on out of body experiences, probably because they generally occur spontaneously, are of short duration, and happen only once or twice in a lifetime.... The reviewed evidence from neurological patients experiencing this striking dissociation between self and body shows that out of body experiences are culturally invariant phenomena that can be investigated scientifically.

Out Of Body Experiences And Their Neural Basis: They Are Linked To Multisensory And Cognitive Processing In The Brain, Olaf Blanke, BMJ: British Medical Journal, Vol. 329, No. 7480 (Dec. 18 - 25, 2004), pp. 1414-1415, Published by: BMJ, Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25469629

OBEs can be induced by drugs or brain stimulation - we are looking at a psychological phenomena here, they are hallucinations. Nothing paranormal is going on. Yes, dissociation is part of the OBE experience, this is purely a psychological phenomena. It is all in the brain, nothing is leaving the body. The scientific consensus from the 1980s has been that OBEs are hallucinations. I don't get your comment about four skeptical sources. The majority of scientific papers on OBEs conclude they are hallucinations (I can list you hundreds going back about thirty years or more). Here's some recent publications which conclude this:

  • Parra, Alejandro. (2009). Out-of-Body Experiences and Hallucinatory Experiences: A Psychological Approach. Journal: Imagination, Cognition and Personality , vol. 29, no. 3, pp. 211-223.
  • Blanke, O; Ortigue, S; Landis, T; Seeck, M. (2002). Stimulating illusory own-body peceptions. Nature 419: 269-270.
  • Blanke, O; Landis, T; Seeck, M. (2004). Out-of-body experience and autoscopy of neurological origin. Brain 127: 243-258.
  • Blanke, O; Mohr, C. (2005). Out-of-body experience, heautoscopy, and autoscopic hallucination of neurological origin. Implications for mechanisms of corporeal awareness and self consciousness. Brain Research Reviews 50: 184-199.
  • Brugger, P. (2002). Reflective mirrors: Perspective-taking in autoscopic phenomena. Cognitive Neuropsychiatry 7: 179-194.
  • Cheyne, J. A; Girard, T. A. (2009). The body unbound: vestibular-motor hallucination and out of body experiences. Cortex 45: 201-215.
  • Jason J. Braithwaite, Dana Samson, Ian Apperly, Emma Broglia, Johan Hulleman. (2011). Cognitive correlates of the spontaneous out-of-body experience (OBE) in the psychologically normal population: Evidence for an increased role of temporal-lobe instability, body-distortion processing, and impairments in own-body transformations. Cortex 47: 839-853.

And all three sources you quote mine above claim the OBE is a hallucination (did you read all of those papers?, especially the Blanke one), so I am not sure what you are skeptical of. It seems to me your issue might be a semantics issue or you are confused about what the OBE is, but I don't have a problem with how you have worded the lead. They are dissociative experiences, yes. Goblin Face (talk) 01:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I did read several of the papers, and none make such a conclusive statement as you have. It is somewhat of a semantics issue. "Dissociative experience" is more precise (and encyclopedic) than hallucination. They're not interchangeable words. Let's also not conflate research which has created OBE-like hallucinations in a laboratory with the idea that all OBEs are hallucinations. - MrX 02:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
  • What do you expect? This is Wikipedia. The preferred method is to silence dissent with anything at all to do with science of any kind. They have a decidedly overly-left-wing view on certain things. Evidently OBE is one. The most obvious example of extreme dissent suppression is AGW. Give it up, you won't get past the Wiki censors. Which is why competing wikis have been built, and why Wikipedia is generally acknowledged as not a definitive source at all, on any subject at all --- but rather just one of many starting points on researching subjects you may be interested in. 10stone5 (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
That's not been my experience. Those who make the most reasoned arguments, grounded in policy, are the ones who are able to influence consensus. You will notice that the wording that I suggested is now in the article.- MrX 18:47, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
  • And that's all well and good. My experience is that dissent and honest research is suppressed on contentious issues at Wikipedia. There is ample information on this phenomenum, available with a few clicks of the button. AGW is the most egrarious, to where almost any Wikipedia article at all connected to Global Warming has been rendered as compromised. But there are numerous other subjects simililarly rendered lower quality due to the same implicit non-dissent edict here at Wikipedia. My opinion is OED is a subject which is being degraded on Wikipedia due to this same phenomenum. 10stone5 (talk) 20:50, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
It is understandable that the OOBE is not hallucination but the experience of the astral world. How do you explain that a person during a clinical death heard and saw everything that went on next door? It should not even know any of the doctors in this room, and not the patient. Of course, the doctors incredibly confirmed what the patient said. Randi is a pseudo-skeptic and pseudoscientist. OOBE is primarily not hallucination and very real experience of soul human and still paranormal activ. Alex&Trevex 22:00, 24 July 2017 (CEST)
Material on Wikipedia has to be verifiable from reliable sources. Randi, for all his showman posturings, is regarded as one such. Personally, I think that Dr. Susan Blackmore is far more reliable than some publicity-conscious ex-magician - but she just happens to agree with him. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

complete OBE was created in experiment[edit]

A complete OBE was created within seconds in healthy persons. The place cells in the brain show with fMRT that the OBE was successful. Information can be found: www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150430124107.htm Brain scan reveals out-of-body illusion. DOI: 10.1016/j.cub.2015.03.059 Posterior cingulate cortex integrates the senses of self-location and body ownership — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.249.201.1 (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

History of the term[edit]

Article needs a correction: The term out-of-body experience was introduced in 1929 by Sylvan Muldoon and Hereward Harrington in their book The Projection of the Astral Body. Muldoon, S. & Carrington, H. (1929). The Projection of the Astral Body. London: Rider.— Preceding unsigned comment added by WickyDoug (talkcontribs) 22:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Charles Tart[edit]

Does this article refer to the work of Charles Tart? I shall have a look at it more thoroughly some time. Vorbee (talk) 20:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

I see the article does mention Charles Tart's work under the heading "Miss Z. study". Vorbee (talk) 20:59, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Let's face the evidence[edit]

Rather than dabble in writers' or - so-called - scientists' theories one should always first have a look at the hard evidence and give it a try. Of course, generally speaking there can be no 100-percent hard material evidence when it comes to things and apparitions pertaining to / originating in the Spirit world. For these extraterrestrial realms are governed by thoroughly different laws and states of any kind. Almost nothing (from) there compares to the Earth plane. But 99-percent, or maybe even less, should suffice to convince all the skeptics lurking around.

What I want to convey, is this: Leslie Flint (1911-94), greatest direct voice medium the world's ever seen, provides us with plenty of audio-taped séances wherein famous spirits relate their individual perception of the free soul while the body is sleeping so that in consequence, by virtue of the very esteem of these spirits' names and of their intellectual credibility, the 'paranormal' explanation of OBE has to be considered as being the only true and appropriate one. I'd like to pick just two examples (but surely there must be more on the LFET website): Composer Frédéric Chopin (1810-49) and novelist Charlotte Brontë (1816-55).

- Charlotte Brontë on April 5th 1973, starting at min 12:20: "Sometimes without their knowledge they are helped, often in perhaps their sleep state when they are relieved from the material worries and conditions of Earth. And they are able to leave the physical body temporarily, enter into the spheres of the Spirit realms and receive instruction and guidance and assistance. And they are sent back and wakened into the Earthly existence on the following morn. In a subconscious mind of the physical body are retained some of these memories which are drawn out sometimes at critical moments when they are most needed. Often when a person perhaps is fully unconscious or unaware, yet at that moment of inspiration as it is called comes forth this "something" that has been handed to them or given to them in so-called sleep state."

- Frédéric Chopin on November 12th 1953, starting at min 20:44: "In your sleep state sometimes you come here. Your brother: he bring you. [...] And it was him that introduce you to me. And since then you’ve been over many times and you go to various concerts, orchestra, you listen and you are like, oh, transfigured, you know. Ha, your face, huh! You don’t know how beautiful it is over here. It is very beautiful on your side in spite of all the complications of your world. But here, oh, it is different altogether."

Orbis*Non*Sufficit (talk) 03:52, 17 November 2020 (UTC)